Today's Guest: Cathy Montgomery & Christian Griffith Rooted To Nature in Elk Rapids, Michigan
Today's Host: John Bentley
January 2008
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Rooted To Nature Expert PageANNOUNCER: Welcome to Rooted to Nature Radio. Today we join Christian Griffith, Cathy Montgomery and John Bentley in the studio discussing Verve Incorporated's exciting climbing and yoga clothing. Now here's your host, John Bentley.
JOHN: Welcome to Rooted Radio. I am your host, John Bentley and today in the studio we have owner of Verve Incorporated, Christian Griffith and also joining us today is Cathy Montgomery fromRooted to Nature . Welcome to the program Cathy and Christian.
CHRISTIAN: Hey John.
Cathy: Hi John.
JOHN: Now we are here to talk about your business, Verve Incorporated, Christian. It looks like you have marked this year, 2008, will mark the 20th anniversary of the company you started, Verve Climbing or Verve Incorporated, and I read that in the 80s you were a young and very good climber looking to support his climbing habits so you started Verve in Boulder, Colorado, with 40 chalk bags. Since then you've moved into climbing clothes, as well as yoga specific clothing. Is this where you saw it all going Christian?
CHRISTIAN: Aah, well yeah, I guess I didn't...I started the business as a way to support my climbing habits. More because I was tired of just giving ideas away to other companies that I was sponsored with at the time, and was really more interested in having better control over my own creative interests and sort of my own creative insight into what I was doing. So, ultimately, I exceeded my expectations, because I've had 20 years of not only designing and developing stuff that myself could wear while I climbed and did other activities that I enjoy, but also I think that Verve and someone who I respect pretty highly in the outdoor industry said it's one of the more if not most influential companies in at least the rock climbing side of things in that whole industry today. And I know looking around when I started the brand, there weren't even climbing clothing companies, and realistically when yoga started becoming more popular in the United States, you know, a decade or so ago, there were very few yoga clothing companies.
So I guess I was fortunate enough to be right on the sort of front edge of both of those movements. So to that extent I had very fertile ground to explore and develop my own ideas. So, yeah, I'm a little bit surprised at how much of a run I've had. I guess I'm surprised still that Verve is as small as it is, but as I look at the way I run my business and the kind of ideals I hold, I guess it doesn't surprise me when I look at some of the ways other businesses approach what it is they're doing.
JOHN: What other considerations do you take into mind when you're designing your clothing, Christian?
CHRISTIAN: I think the primary consideration I take into mind when I design clothing is I try and really consider the needs and the bodies and the wishes of the people that are genuinely passionate about what it is that they do. If you look around at a lot of the clothing that's out there, a label or some kind of screen print or something that attempts to convey some kind of notion of I'm really involved in this activity or I'm dedicated to this particular pursuit, Verve clothing and how I go about designing it is really starts off with the notion that the piece itself can be completely stripped of any kind of logo and kind of direct reference back to where it came from and that someone who is passionate about that activity would see it. You know, maybe in like a crowded store or even just in like a thrift store somewhere years from now and say, wow, this is exactly what I've been looking for.
Someone really thought about yoga or really thought about rock climbing when they made this piece, and I can see that, and it wouldn't even matter that it didn't have a logo on it or a brand they hadn't understood. That's the sort of thing that I guess I like to see built into the clothing that I design and that I make, and I think that's one of the reasons why despite the growth of just these monster companies in the outdoor and the yoga industry, Verve not only remains strong and stable, but also extremely influential. You know, I still work out of a 500 sq. ft. essentially old garage with one employee and three ancient dogs at this point, but I think that Verve has and continues to influence designers in enormous multi-national companies and it's copied and cloned all across the globe. So to that degree I think we've been on the right track.
JOHN: Now, Cathy, outside of climbing gyms, there isn't much climbing in northern Michigan's lake country. What got Rooted to Nature interested in Verve clothing?
Cathy: It was a few things, actually. Nick, who works with us, was living in Colorado at the time, and he was familiar with Verve, and then we met Christian at the Outdoor Retailer Show a couple of years ago, and looked at the clothes he was making and just had a conversation with him, and felt the integrity of what he was doing. It extended all the way from him through everything that he was making. He also, we liked the fact that he was using organic cotton, Merino wool, natural fibers which are a basis of our company. It's true there aren't that many dedicated climbers in Michigan. Sometimes people have gotten stuck here maybe and so they use the gym just to stay limbered up for their next big climbing adventure vacation, but because we are Rootedtonature.com, we have customers across the country, many of whom are searching the internet for Verve clothing who definitely know the brand and who are looking for it. So, we're happy to provide that for whoever is looking for it and to introduce new customers whether they're into the yoga end or the climbing end to introduce them to the great clothing, the great fit, and the performance of Verve clothes.
JOHN: Now what do your customers say about Verve clothing?
Cathy: Well, we have the full range of folks who are I wouldn't know if you'd call them Verve groupies, but who definitely know what they're looking for and they go online and find us or whoever will provide Verve clothing to them, they just know that that gear is going to perform. It's going to fit them properly, it's going to be comfortable, it's going to last, and it's going to be made in a way that they want to support. It's going to be made by a company that has integrity and is not doing things the wrong way. So there's that customer, and then there are the new customers that come into the store and try it on for the first time and are impressed with the quality of the fabrics, the way it fits. They'll get down on the floor and stretch and they say, "Yep this what I'm looking for."
JOHN: Now Christian, Verve has developed a following among yoga practitioners too, we know that. We know many elite climbers and athletes of all sports make yoga a part of their training routine, have you modified any of your designs for a yoga specific practice?
CHRISTIAN: At this point there are pieces that have been designed exclusively for yoga. In sort of the early days or I should say not necessarily the early days, but about ten years ago which would be about half way through the life span of this company thus far, I think a lot of yoga people discovered Verve because in those days they really had two options. They could wear some kind of like street wear which would obviously not work at all for yoga, or they could wear something like dance wear which especially with men would generally be made of sort of flimsier fabrics, you know, skin tight kinds of fits and pastel colors, and you know.
Cathy: It's quite an image...
CHRISTIAN: A lot of those yoga people were looking for something that was close to the body, but maybe not so revealing and were also wanting fabric that would last longer. I mean, climbing obviously if you're really building clothing for climbing, it's a very tough task master to meet the demands of because you're constantly coming in contact with abrasive surfaces with, you know, sharp edges of the rock with prickly plants and shrubs that you have to brush past as you go to the bottom of the cliffs and the boulders and, you know, obviously with yoga a lot of people spend a lot of time on the floor, they spend a lot of time holding positions that really do stress fabric. So I think that people discovered Verve initially because there was that sense that the fabric quality was about the best that you could find and that the cuts were designed for movement and there wasn't a lot of extraneous detail that gets added in to a lot of brands of clothing out there that are done mostly as just enticements for people that really don't know what they're looking for.
Moving forward with designing more exclusively or more specifically for yoga, now, climbing to a degree has been influenced by, I'll throw the name out, Piranha, because Piranha surf beach culture line that really was I think kind of developed out of a skateboard kind of southern California lifestyle look and as a result in influencing the sport of rock climbing brought in a lot of details that weren't necessarily specific to rock climbing or even useful for rock climbing things like cargo pockets or, you know, zippers in unusual places, things like that and one of the things that I guess I've tried to do with Verve is continue to maintain a real pure ascetic and kind of exclusivity of detail so that, again as I stated in my earlier kind of answer, you know, Verve really stands on its own with out any kind of logo or a curtramid or kind of odd design detail and I think that a lot of really advanced and or dedicated yoga people really like the fact that these new pieces are just simply what they need and nothing more.
JOHN: Is durability the reason why you use Merino wool and what about other natural fibers such as organic cotton? What's the purpose of that?
CHRISTIAN: I guess that, I remember I was asked about organic cotton or just about cotton in general years ago when the whole polar tech thing and synthetic fibers started becoming more prominent in the outdoor industry and at that point I was very resistant to going to that partially just because, one, you know, nothing surpasses cotton and natural fibers for comfort against your skin. And, you know, ultimately when you're out interacting in the natural environment, it's nice to feel that you have that connection. It's one of the reasons I like walking with dogs. Because a do actually serves as almost an intuitive bridge or link between you and the natural world around you. Dogs are much more aware of a lot of things that we as people standing higher and having bigger brains and larger heads aren't really..
Cathy: He notices.
CHRISTIAN: aware of and that's the same with clothing to a degree. It serves as a kind of a link, and so if you can actually get closer to nature with the clothing you're wearing in terms of using natural fibers and natural more muted, more organic colors, I think you can find you'll have an easier time kind of slipping into kind of a state of harmony or at least a state of awareness with the environment around you. I also like natural fibers because if you ever find an old cotton shirt somewhere, you know, be it up in an attic or, you know, outside in the forest some where, you know those things have a natural life span. They go away in a reasonable rate. You know, by the same token, something synthetic, you know, I remember I used to joke that one of the reasons I like using natural fibers for my clothing was that if someone ever fell off a cliff in a remote place, they're clothing would deteriorate at the same rate their body did.
Cathy: Oh, geez..
CHRISTIAN: And there wouldn't..the skeleton inside a plastic bag eventually. I guess that's kind of true. Again, it's sort of an appreciation of the fact that we have a certain connection to the world around us, and we have a certain lifespan.
JOHN: You know, unlike many of the companies that I see out there, you have managed to avoid exporting the production of your clothing oversees. How do you manage to do that, Christian?
CHRISTIAN: Well, it's funny, I didn't manage to avoid, I have deliberately chosen to avoid exporting my production. And how have I managed to do that? Just barely. I mean it really that choice, probably above and beyond almost any other at this point, has really threatened the existence of my brand. If you look at say REI catalog or a Patagonia catalog, in fact, for whatever reason I'm on their mailing list to both those companies, almost every single article of clothing that they offer in those catalogs is imported. And when they say imported, they're not importing them from Italy, they're not importing them from France, or from Norway. They're importing them from China and places like that where, you know, if you read their propaganda it's the greenest place in the world. Where everyone, you know, works minimum number of hours a week and then goes out and hangs out in the beautiful, green countryside of Asia. But if you look in some of the more convincing, I think pointed and less subjective forms of media, you can really see that there's a lot of things going on in those countries not only human rights issues, but just grotesque environmental degradations that are occurring and to help these countries ramp up to the first world status that they're so hungry to get, and not that I can blame them for that, but I think that it's unreasonable and irresponsible to assume that just because we're pumping all this work and this money into those countries that they are going to somehow leap past us in environmental awareness and in human rights awareness and, in fact, be the ones telling us that we're doing it all wrong, and the United States needs to stop driving bigger cars. I can guaranty you that the people in China, if they had the opportunity to all drive Hummers right now, they would gladly do so. And I live in Boulder, Colorado, which is extremely affluent, everyone here, well not everyone, but you know we have a university in our town that talks itself for it's environmental programs, you know, we have a very progressive university, La Ropa, yet I'm surrounded by people driving SUVs and living in 5,000 sq ft homes. I mean, again, if we can't get it right here, right now, how can we expect a country that is struggling to feed its population to somehow want to hold back and protect our world. That's one of the reasons why I keep things here, because I know how things are made.
If I really am curious to know how the energy that's being used to say power one of the sewing machines that one of the old ladies that sews Verve here in Boulder uses, you know, I can go on Excel's website. I could probably go down to the power plant and say, "Hey, I want to get a tour. I want to look and see what kind of like carbon emission scrubbers you're using." You now if I want to know what kinds of working environments Verve clothing is made in, I can go visit the ladies houses. I do that. Not so much to just check on to make sure they have proper lighting and ventilation, but because they invite me over sometimes just to have coffee, and, you know, they work out of houses very much like the one I live in. So it's really an older model, but it's also a model that allows a lot of control and it allows a real accentic presence that unfortunately our margins are so low, we really don't get an opportunity to talk about very much. That's one of the funny things about the modern sort of society is that people that are making money hands over fists have the ability to manipulate the media to say whatever they want to say and there's very, very little in the way of watch dogs out there that are looking over the shoulder of these big companies. Occasionally, you hear some rumblings like what happened with Nike and the whole sweatshop thing years ago. That was obviously one and very strong indicator what is really going on, but that is not an isolated incident I can guaranty you.
JOHN: Well, we're going to wrap things up here, Christian. What plans do you have for Verve for the future?
CHRISTIAN: Well, it's interesting I don't really necessarily see Verve as needing to grow a whole lot. We haven't really grown in 20 years. I think that part of the reason that Verve, I realize now still being in business and still perhaps its fundamental role is not so much even really making a lot of money. Maybe it is just to maintain a paradigm out there of business but sort of flies in the face in a lot of what we've been brought up to believe and that is that you know you have to grow to be sustained. I think that one of the greatest values of Verve right now is simply that it shows that if you're passionate about something and you believe in certain values that people will find you and they will support you and really as much as we've supported young climbers and yoga people throughout the country and the world, you know, they've turned around and supported us with their business and I guess the ultimate message is that I would like to leave the interview with is, you know, I think that people these days need to buy less, but they need to buy better.
You know, I was in the climbing gym last night and I have one of my favorite pair of pants on with like two big patches on the back on the butt and some woman who works in the outdoor industry came up to me and asked, "Why don't you get yourself a new pair of pants; you own a climbing clothing company for God sakes." And I'm like, you know, you don't get it. That's the point, I mean, these things I've had them for 7 years and I want to wear them for another 3. I don't need anything new. These are perfect. There's also a patch on the back.
Cathy: Good for you, that's what we love about you and your company. And that's why Rooted to Nature really wants to support Verve in any way we can.
CHRISTIAN: Thank you, we certainly appreciate it.
JOHN: Well, we thank you for joining us today on Rooted to Nature Radio, Christian.
CHRISTIAN: Great to talk to you both.
JOHN: We've been in the studio with Christian Griffith of Verve Incorporated. Also with Cathy Montgomery of Rooted to Nature. I want to thank Cathy for joining us today also.
Cathy: Hey, it was good to be here, thanks.
JOHN: And I will say, Good day to you. Thanks for joining and tuning in to Rooted to Nature Radio. Have a great afternoon.
ANNOUNCER: Today's guest has been Christian Griffith of Verve Climbing in Boulder, Colorado. You can find out more information about his company at www.verveclimbing.com. Today's show is brought to you by Rootedtonatureradio.com, natural clothing for sustainable future. Find out more about Rooted to Nature on the web at www.rootedtonature.com. Thanks for listening to Rooted to Nature Radio only on VTalkradio.com. Radio for the 21st century.
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